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	<title>Comments on: An English Primer for Orthodox Christians</title>
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	<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/</link>
	<description>Decimation &#38; Reconstruction: a weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Basil</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-17076</link>
		<dc:creator>Basil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-17076</guid>
		<description>Covington: Didache is normally pronounced DEE duh kay or DID uh kay, the CH being like the CH in Christ or chrism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Covington: Didache is normally pronounced DEE duh kay or DID uh kay, the CH being like the CH in Christ or chrism.</p>
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		<title>By: Covington</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-17058</link>
		<dc:creator>Covington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 04:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-17058</guid>
		<description>How does one pronounce Didache?  Cannot find in my dictionaries or in anything here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does one pronounce Didache?  Cannot find in my dictionaries or in anything here.</p>
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		<title>By: Basil</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7971</link>
		<dc:creator>Basil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7971</guid>
		<description>What does &quot;dilemma&quot; mean to you? What does the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.answers.com/dilemma&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;dictionary say&lt;/a&gt;? There are are more important issues than translation in the church and in our lives, but not many. I would perhaps put the issue of uncanonical, overlapping episcopal jurisdictions above translation issues. That there are more important issues neither negates the relative importance of proper translation nor shows that focusing on each issue in its place is impossible.

I categorically reject that my personal life in Christ is incompatible with fighting for proper forms to communicate that life to those around me. I also categorically reject that it is someone else&#039;s business. (Perhaps you are bound by an unconscious clericalism?) The task belongs to everyone, not just religious professionals.

The problem is that the problem is not at all restricted to words (or how they are pronounced). The whole issue is distinguishing betweeen what is essential to the Gospel and what is inessential, ethnic, external form in Orthodoxy&#039;s strangeness. The more we shrug and just live with the strangeness, the less we are able to understand how strange visitors find it. I will continue to fight for an authentic American expression of Orthodoxy.

And part of that means pronouncing words and names in a way that doesn&#039;t strike people as strange. (Here&#039;s a hint: evangelicals, who centuries ago forgot how they&#039;re pronounced anyway, are not the canon against which I&#039;m measuring this; they&#039;ll think it&#039;s all strange, whether it&#039;s Orthodox, Catholic or Anglican.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does &#8220;dilemma&#8221; mean to you? What does the <a href="http://www.answers.com/dilemma" >dictionary say</a>? There are are more important issues than translation in the church and in our lives, but not many. I would perhaps put the issue of uncanonical, overlapping episcopal jurisdictions above translation issues. That there are more important issues neither negates the relative importance of proper translation nor shows that focusing on each issue in its place is impossible.</p>
<p>I categorically reject that my personal life in Christ is incompatible with fighting for proper forms to communicate that life to those around me. I also categorically reject that it is someone else&#8217;s business. (Perhaps you are bound by an unconscious clericalism?) The task belongs to everyone, not just religious professionals.</p>
<p>The problem is that the problem is not at all restricted to words (or how they are pronounced). The whole issue is distinguishing betweeen what is essential to the Gospel and what is inessential, ethnic, external form in Orthodoxy&#8217;s strangeness. The more we shrug and just live with the strangeness, the less we are able to understand how strange visitors find it. I will continue to fight for an authentic American expression of Orthodoxy.</p>
<p>And part of that means pronouncing words and names in a way that doesn&#8217;t strike people as strange. (Here&#8217;s a hint: evangelicals, who centuries ago forgot how they&#8217;re pronounced anyway, are not the canon against which I&#8217;m measuring this; they&#8217;ll think it&#8217;s all strange, whether it&#8217;s Orthodox, Catholic or Anglican.)</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7953</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7953</guid>
		<description>I am not trying to present a dilemma. I am simply presenting the idea that there seems to be many important issues in the church and in our lives that outweigh pronunciation issues. Especially since we, as a country can&#039;t consistently pronounce words in our own language let alone words that we are adopting.

No offense ment. Like I said...take it for what it&#039;s worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not trying to present a dilemma. I am simply presenting the idea that there seems to be many important issues in the church and in our lives that outweigh pronunciation issues. Especially since we, as a country can&#8217;t consistently pronounce words in our own language let alone words that we are adopting.</p>
<p>No offense ment. Like I said&#8230;take it for what it&#8217;s worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Basil</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7952</link>
		<dc:creator>Basil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 00:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7952</guid>
		<description>Gideon, cute.

Praise God, also, that Ss. Cyril and Methodius didn&#039;t wait until they were free from all sin to create the Cyrillic alphabet and translate the faith into Slavonic. Thank God they continued to repent as they were making the choices that eventually led to you and I being Orthodox.

Praise God, also, that St. Paul did not wait until he was free from sin to take Christ to the Roman Empire. Thank God he and his companions continued to repent as they preached the good news of our salvation to the Greco-Latin world.

You imply a false dilemma between repentance and having strong opinions about how to translate Christianity in a post-Christian cultural context. I reject your false dilemma; I will continue to repent &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; hope for a recognition that English-speaking culture has been Christian since Ss. Columban, Patrick, Caedmon, Kevin, Bede and Augustine first preached Christianity to the Isles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gideon, cute.</p>
<p>Praise God, also, that Ss. Cyril and Methodius didn&#8217;t wait until they were free from all sin to create the Cyrillic alphabet and translate the faith into Slavonic. Thank God they continued to repent as they were making the choices that eventually led to you and I being Orthodox.</p>
<p>Praise God, also, that St. Paul did not wait until he was free from sin to take Christ to the Roman Empire. Thank God he and his companions continued to repent as they preached the good news of our salvation to the Greco-Latin world.</p>
<p>You imply a false dilemma between repentance and having strong opinions about how to translate Christianity in a post-Christian cultural context. I reject your false dilemma; I will continue to repent <em>and</em> hope for a recognition that English-speaking culture has been Christian since Ss. Columban, Patrick, Caedmon, Kevin, Bede and Augustine first preached Christianity to the Isles.</p>
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		<title>By: Gideon</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7951</link>
		<dc:creator>Gideon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7951</guid>
		<description>For some reason this conversation brings the following story to mind.

I had been Orthodox for less than a year and I was having lunch with a Priest during a lenten period. I ordered a salad with Ranch dressing. Later, when I remembered that I should be fasting from dairy I said, &quot;Forgive me Father. I am eating dairy.&quot; (paraphrased) Father&#039;s respose was, &quot;Praise God that you have so few sins that you can worry about what dressing you are eating on your salad.&quot; (again paraphrased)

Take it for what it&#039;s worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For some reason this conversation brings the following story to mind.</p>
<p>I had been Orthodox for less than a year and I was having lunch with a Priest during a lenten period. I ordered a salad with Ranch dressing. Later, when I remembered that I should be fasting from dairy I said, &#8220;Forgive me Father. I am eating dairy.&#8221; (paraphrased) Father&#8217;s respose was, &#8220;Praise God that you have so few sins that you can worry about what dressing you are eating on your salad.&#8221; (again paraphrased)</p>
<p>Take it for what it&#8217;s worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7921</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7921</guid>
		<description>This can be more practical: how do we teach our children to pronounce these terms? On the one hand it is quite correct to say that the pronunciation doesn&#039;t matter -- it is the idea and understanding of it that is important. On the other hand, this is part of the struggle for us as we are Orthodox and American and as we seek to communicate the good news to those in our country. Using American English terms and pronunciation does not necessarily improve communication; Orthodox certainly use terms like symbol, mystery, repentance, and salvation with somewhat different or more complete meanings than our culture at large. It is also true that proper pronunciation makes proper spelling easier, although I doubt our kids will have Theotokos on any school spelling test, at least not until we have an Orthodox school that they are attending.

The argument that one pronunciation of Theotokos is better than the other is a difficult one for me. I have a similar struggle when thinking about how to label icons. If you use the Greek (or in the case of icons, the typical abbreviation) you can speak to all Orthodox. If you use English, you speak to a particular people and perhaps make it more comprehensible to non-Orthodox English speakers. (I suppose I should be more specific lest you think I&#039;m saying don&#039;t translate. I believe in using English in icons for here in Ky, but struggle with the well-known abbreviations for the Theotokos and Christ.) At some point words are translated or acquired and become part of the language and culture. In the case of Theotokos, Basil has made a good case for the Anglicized pronunciation that has been around for a while. One big point in its favor is that it makes English more consistent, not less. We need all the help we can get.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This can be more practical: how do we teach our children to pronounce these terms? On the one hand it is quite correct to say that the pronunciation doesn&#8217;t matter &#8212; it is the idea and understanding of it that is important. On the other hand, this is part of the struggle for us as we are Orthodox and American and as we seek to communicate the good news to those in our country. Using American English terms and pronunciation does not necessarily improve communication; Orthodox certainly use terms like symbol, mystery, repentance, and salvation with somewhat different or more complete meanings than our culture at large. It is also true that proper pronunciation makes proper spelling easier, although I doubt our kids will have Theotokos on any school spelling test, at least not until we have an Orthodox school that they are attending.</p>
<p>The argument that one pronunciation of Theotokos is better than the other is a difficult one for me. I have a similar struggle when thinking about how to label icons. If you use the Greek (or in the case of icons, the typical abbreviation) you can speak to all Orthodox. If you use English, you speak to a particular people and perhaps make it more comprehensible to non-Orthodox English speakers. (I suppose I should be more specific lest you think I&#8217;m saying don&#8217;t translate. I believe in using English in icons for here in Ky, but struggle with the well-known abbreviations for the Theotokos and Christ.) At some point words are translated or acquired and become part of the language and culture. In the case of Theotokos, Basil has made a good case for the Anglicized pronunciation that has been around for a while. One big point in its favor is that it makes English more consistent, not less. We need all the help we can get.</p>
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		<title>By: Basil</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7886</link>
		<dc:creator>Basil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 05:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7886</guid>
		<description>As an Orthodox missionary to Appalachia, that is a question you will need to answer for yourself. As someone who has been raised, at different points in my life, in Appalachia and the South, I reckon you&#039;ve got yourself a point there. I point to dictionary pronunciations because they provide a prescription that does not depend upon a slippery &quot;cultural context,&quot; which becomes individually eccentric when taken to extreme. In a discussion that could easily devolve into, &quot;I say tomato, you say tomato,&quot; a dictionary gives us a canon against which to judge whether there is a correct pronunciation. In my experience in Appalachia and the South, &quot;theology&quot; is a four-letter word, but it&#039;s still pronounced with a long &quot;e,&quot; not a long &quot;a.&quot; Similarly with &quot;Theodore.&quot; The main difference, it would seem to me, is that the second syllable, a schwa, might be omitted. Other &quot;theo-&quot; words, such as &quot;theophany&quot; or &quot;theocratic,&quot; would likely not be part of the vocabulary of most Appalachians, though I would think that probably Berry and Kingsolver would use them. It is based on this that I still insist that a long &quot;e&quot; is the proper English pronunciation of Theotokos, unless it&#039;s not intended to be imported into English. In either case,I find that I side with the British who translate the term. (See the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.anastasis.org.uk/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;translations of Archimandrite Ephrem&lt;/a&gt; and the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sourozh.org/liturgy/liturgy.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Russian Orthodox Diocese of Sourozh&lt;/a&gt;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an Orthodox missionary to Appalachia, that is a question you will need to answer for yourself. As someone who has been raised, at different points in my life, in Appalachia and the South, I reckon you&#8217;ve got yourself a point there. I point to dictionary pronunciations because they provide a prescription that does not depend upon a slippery &#8220;cultural context,&#8221; which becomes individually eccentric when taken to extreme. In a discussion that could easily devolve into, &#8220;I say tomato, you say tomato,&#8221; a dictionary gives us a canon against which to judge whether there is a correct pronunciation. In my experience in Appalachia and the South, &#8220;theology&#8221; is a four-letter word, but it&#8217;s still pronounced with a long &#8220;e,&#8221; not a long &#8220;a.&#8221; Similarly with &#8220;Theodore.&#8221; The main difference, it would seem to me, is that the second syllable, a schwa, might be omitted. Other &#8220;theo-&#8221; words, such as &#8220;theophany&#8221; or &#8220;theocratic,&#8221; would likely not be part of the vocabulary of most Appalachians, though I would think that probably Berry and Kingsolver would use them. It is based on this that I still insist that a long &#8220;e&#8221; is the proper English pronunciation of Theotokos, unless it&#8217;s not intended to be imported into English. In either case,I find that I side with the British who translate the term. (See the <a href="http://www.anastasis.org.uk/index.html" rel="nofollow">translations of Archimandrite Ephrem</a> and the <a href="http://www.sourozh.org/liturgy/liturgy.htm" >Russian Orthodox Diocese of Sourozh</a>.)</p>
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		<title>By: alana</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7885</link>
		<dc:creator>alana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7885</guid>
		<description>This whole conversation is striking me as somewhat odd in light of the fact that I&#039;ve been spending a little bit of time lately being a reading tutor for some kids and one adult here in my community (not Church community), and the difficulty these people seem to be consistely facing is that their deeply rooted spoken language, Appalachian Kentuckian English, is in it&#039;s pronuniciation enough different to cause phonetic difficulties in the decoding process of reading, and almost different enough that I would compare it to my growing up experience of living with a spoken language and a different written language (Schwyzerduetsch and Hochdeutsch).  

Correct pronunication of terms such at Theotokos etc. seem irrelevant in a context where, for example, the word &quot;idea&quot; is pronounced identically to the word &quot;ideal&quot; and vocabulary is culturally very limited to begin with, where the written word, when it is phonetically pronounced does not communicate that which it ought because of a vast difference between standard Enlish and the local dialect.  

Your insistence on standard Enlish really seems like a moot point. But I&#039;d love to hear your thoughts on this angle.  

We also don&#039;t want Orthodoxy simply to become a faith of the intelligenzia, well-educated, etc.  The question I walked out of my tutoring session with was:  How to catechize a down home Appalachian Kentucky native Baptist without her really knowing it?  We DID discuss the Bible.  It was a good time.  

I think part of the answer has got to do with loving persons, and being involved in their lives, no matter what our ever-morhphing language sounds like.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole conversation is striking me as somewhat odd in light of the fact that I&#8217;ve been spending a little bit of time lately being a reading tutor for some kids and one adult here in my community (not Church community), and the difficulty these people seem to be consistely facing is that their deeply rooted spoken language, Appalachian Kentuckian English, is in it&#8217;s pronuniciation enough different to cause phonetic difficulties in the decoding process of reading, and almost different enough that I would compare it to my growing up experience of living with a spoken language and a different written language (Schwyzerduetsch and Hochdeutsch).  </p>
<p>Correct pronunication of terms such at Theotokos etc. seem irrelevant in a context where, for example, the word &#8220;idea&#8221; is pronounced identically to the word &#8220;ideal&#8221; and vocabulary is culturally very limited to begin with, where the written word, when it is phonetically pronounced does not communicate that which it ought because of a vast difference between standard Enlish and the local dialect.  </p>
<p>Your insistence on standard Enlish really seems like a moot point. But I&#8217;d love to hear your thoughts on this angle.  </p>
<p>We also don&#8217;t want Orthodoxy simply to become a faith of the intelligenzia, well-educated, etc.  The question I walked out of my tutoring session with was:  How to catechize a down home Appalachian Kentucky native Baptist without her really knowing it?  We DID discuss the Bible.  It was a good time.  </p>
<p>I think part of the answer has got to do with loving persons, and being involved in their lives, no matter what our ever-morhphing language sounds like.</p>
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		<title>By: Basil</title>
		<link>http://kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/an-english-primer-for-orthodox-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-7884</link>
		<dc:creator>Basil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.kevinbasil.com/2005/03/27/im-sorry-i-speak-english/#comment-7884</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What you seem to mean is that the dictionaries you referenced give a phonetic pronunciation that is at variance with what you often hear. Ok, so pronunciation varies.&lt;/em&gt;

Pronunciation, like spelling and meaning, are prescriptive and descriptive. Different dictionary publishers tend towards one or the other. Merriam Webster tends more toward description than prescription. Oxford English Dictionary and American Heritage tend more toward prescription.

Why do some people mispronounce &quot;theology,&quot; &quot;Zaccheus,&quot; and &quot;Arimithea&quot;? Because they learned it that way from others who were mispronouncing them. Were I in Russia or Greece (or any other land where another language is spoken), I would endeavor to pronounce their words the way they pronounce them. I am only asking the same.

But perhaps you&#039;re right. I&#039;ll just pronounce words the way I want; to hell with what others think of me. Were I to do that, I would be viewed as strange and eccentric at best; at worst, I would be ignored by everyone else as an idiot. If a community takes the same stance, the surrounding society will respond the same way. I really don&#039;t care of some odd sect does that, but it really bothers me if the Church does that while also chanting, &quot;We have seen the true light; we have found the true faith.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>What you seem to mean is that the dictionaries you referenced give a phonetic pronunciation that is at variance with what you often hear. Ok, so pronunciation varies.</em></p>
<p>Pronunciation, like spelling and meaning, are prescriptive and descriptive. Different dictionary publishers tend towards one or the other. Merriam Webster tends more toward description than prescription. Oxford English Dictionary and American Heritage tend more toward prescription.</p>
<p>Why do some people mispronounce &#8220;theology,&#8221; &#8220;Zaccheus,&#8221; and &#8220;Arimithea&#8221;? Because they learned it that way from others who were mispronouncing them. Were I in Russia or Greece (or any other land where another language is spoken), I would endeavor to pronounce their words the way they pronounce them. I am only asking the same.</p>
<p>But perhaps you&#8217;re right. I&#8217;ll just pronounce words the way I want; to hell with what others think of me. Were I to do that, I would be viewed as strange and eccentric at best; at worst, I would be ignored by everyone else as an idiot. If a community takes the same stance, the surrounding society will respond the same way. I really don&#8217;t care of some odd sect does that, but it really bothers me if the Church does that while also chanting, &#8220;We have seen the true light; we have found the true faith.&#8221;</p>
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